OffshoreAlert
Daily news, documents and intelligence about Offshore Financial Centers and those who conduct business in them that you will not find anywhere else.
RSS Feed Print
Anatomy of a Noni Scam
Internal Administrator
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011
Joined: 10/12/2010
Posts: 5780


Posted: 3/22/2003 7:03:44 PM

By: Okke Ornstein

THE ANATOMY OF A NONI SCAM
(Any resemblance with real persons or entities is, of course, entirely coindicental)

WHAT IS NONI?
Noni is a fruit that looks horrible, smells horrible and tastes horrible, and that has therefore been attributed all sorts of powers that come down to "it's going to keep you healthy and young forever". It comes from the Polynesian Islands where life expectancy is not exactly higher than in other places of this world, and has become popular in certain circles. A bottle of noni-juice here in Panama will at times set you back no less than $25. The awfull things itself sell for equally absurd prices. There is no scientific backing for the noni health claims. There is no backing at all, so to say.
The noni tree grows rapidly in hot and humid climates and produces truckloads of fruits. Personally I believe it's a hype that will go away in a couple of years. "Believers" will probably claim differently.

THE SCAM
Assume a big banana growing company, say Chiquita, would be leaving Panama because of problems with the government, workers unions, over-use of pesticides - the usual frustrations of banana companies operating in hostile tropical environments. An enormous amount of land becomes available to be used for fun and profit. That is to say, the land didn't belong to the bananeras in the first place. It's indigenous land. Belongs to Indian tribes.

Enters the scene a clever entrepreneur who smells a buck a mile away. He travels to the deserted banana plantations. He locates the Indian tribe, and chooses the dumbest member of it he can find to enter into conversation with. After some social chit chat, he comes to the point, being that there is money to be made. And beads. The dumb indian loves beads, and his wife likes money. A win win situation. All he needs to do is go with the businessman to the mayor of the nearby town and claim the banana land, because it belongs to his tribe, and then sell it for some money and of course the beads to his new friend. And so they go, visit the mayor, the indian claims the land, hands it over to our entrepreneur and everybody goes home totally satisfied after yet another day in paradise.

The entrepreneur quickly starts to sell the land. He hires a sales director, a fraudster who escaped from Costa Rica. To attract investors, he offers them incredible returns because he has this crop, noni, that has magic powers and sells for magic prices and grows like hell in the tropics. These incredible trees he will plant for his investors where once were the bananas. And he will do more. He'll plant teak trees as well! Everybody knows that teak sells for magic prices too. The entrepreneur doesn't worry about (re)forestation expertise, FSC approval, pesticide spraying, or even a serious calculation of returns. His clients shouldn't worry either. A teak tree is a teak tree and ya basta. You plant a hundred of them, and you get a hundred forest giants ready to be sold - we don't do thinnings like the others. And we're not at all worried that the teak tree doesn't grow well in the area where once bananas flourished.

Prospective clients are flown in from the US to this paradise called Panama. They get a seminar about what a paradise Panama really is. The seriously interested prospects are selected and fed truckloads of alcohol, swimming pool parties and women of low moral fiber and age. Immediately, they start to see what these entrepreneurs mean. It IS a paradise! Where do I sign?

One hectare sells after the other, and everything looks well. Helicopters fly on and off to show an ever increasing crowd of prospects their new piece of heaven. Many more are waiting, attracted by the web site of an artist who escaped from America who calls this "The best investment I've ever seen!".

Clients get a certificate, but no land title. There are no land titles. They have to be made, which will take about 10 years. It can be done quicker, but at more cost (the entrepreneur doesn't like that word). In those ten years, no-one else should claim the land.

Because this is a secure investment, nothing is being planted on the land as of yet, or so the theory of our entrepreneur goes. It's better to sell all the land first and then start to develop it. "No problemo!", says the fraudster who escaped from Costa Rica, "you sign the cheque, we'll do the rest!".

WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN NEXT?
Meanwhile, our Indian friend has told everybody in his village about the wild business deal he made with this foreign entrepreneur, parading proudly through Main Street with the beads around his neck. No longer will he be the tribe dumbo. He is biznizmen too!

"What?" yells the head of the tribe, a wise man with previous experience with devious whites, when he hears the story. "are you totally out of your f**** mind?!"

And so, the mayor of the nearby town, a corrupto who escaped from Panama City, gets another visit. The land is reclaimed by the Indian tribe. No titles, more troubles. Dumbo can keep the beads, though.

The entrepreneur, the fraudster who escaped from Costa Rica and the artist who escaped from America don't worry about this unfortunate event too much. They're off in the heli, in the direction of San Blas this time. There are plenty of indians there, too. Sure they'll find another dumbo.

Later, investors who start to worry find that the fraudster who escaped from Costa Rica might have to escape again, as he is all of a sudden back in Costa Rica - in prison this time. "Gosh, and he was such a nice man..."

"It's a steal!" writes the artist who escaped from America on his site after yet another pool party. Sure. A double steal. First you steal from the Indians, then from investors. But for five figures a month, even artists may overlook these minor flaws.

Okke Ornstein


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/28/2003 1:04:47 PM

By: Bob Estes

You sir, should have no right to discuss money laundering, when you had your head so far up Marc's *** that you ended up with with his ex, that worked in 501. The only scam I see here is yours. Your using this post not only to discount other projects, but to promote your own. I can only guess that you were absent the day they taught ethics, wherever you received your education.

Question: what is it that you are doing here on Marchant's forum? Wasn't it you that discounted everything that he was correct about when it came to Marc? At least he has the decency to investigate information before he goes off on his tangents.

I am actually considering investing in their project now, thanks to you. Keep up the good work and discount more projects, you may make me some money.

By the way, this is taken from a site, that I will post at the bottom, "the prestigious "Well Being Journal" May-June 1999 noted about Dr Heinicke's research:

The journal further noted about noni, "Research has proven that noni fruit juice is antibacterial, anti-inflammatory, analgesic, anticongestive, hypotensive and cancer inhibiting in some cancers (because of a compound called Damnacanthal)".

Now, I by no means am a medical doctor, but the entire site, as well as the above sounds like it works to me. I vaguely remember you mentioning that there was no proven medical benefits from NONI....I suppose you're right in your own fantasy world, especially since a Doctor states you're NOT.

Finally, I really think that I would rather get my information from "al jazeera".

Here's the site I mentioned. It took me about 15 seconds to find it through Yahoo search engine.

http://www.aromatherapygiftshop.co.uk/hawaiian_noni_info.html


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/28/2003 12:11:55 PM

By: Okke Ornstein

Don't say too loudly that they don't plant tulips, as they might well start offering that too.

I was reading the posts of the noni tubbies again, and the most fascinating part is where I am accused of "stabbing a friend in the back".

I don't have any noni tubbies as friends, however.

I once met the sales director of the noni tubbies at a wedding here in Panama. He declared Panama his paradise, and invited me for lunch to discuss how he "could set me up in this paradise called Panama". I never went to have lunch with him. The next thing I heard was that he was arrested and extradited to Costa Rica. I would hardly call that a friend, but maybe the noni's have different ideas about that.

I also once met the artist who escaped from America, together with a real friend (who has nothing to do with noni's). As a matter of fact, I a sort of liked the artist. I was disappointed when he never replied to my emails and faxes I sent him. Meeting someone once is hardly what I call friendship. Next thing I hear is that he makes a lot of money selling untitled noni land.

I'm not aware of having even met others from the noni tubbies. I've never heard of "John Lucas" or "Marvin Mendelwitz" or "Bob Estes".

I didn't invent teak. My company does offer reforestation. Real and serious reforestation, with real trees (and not just teak) that grow on real land with real land titles that are handed to real investors. The project we invest in fullfills all the requirements of the Forest Stewardship Council (FSC). It's recommended by PRORENA, the Native Species Reforestation Project of the Smithonian Tropical Research Institute and the Yale School of Forestry and Environmental Studies. It offers sound returns that have been calculated by experts from, among others, the University of Agriculture in the Netherlands.

None of this applies to the yet unplanted teak trees of the noni tubbies. I consulted with some forestry experts. Teak does not grow very well in the area they're selling.
There are plenty examples in Panama of badly set up and managed teak or mahogany plantations. Just drive down the Panamericana and you'll see them. Trees that grow in strange curves which makes them worthless. Too densely planted which prohibits them from growing. Sometimes these are simply money laundering operations. We don't really need more of this here.

So yes, it does bother me that a bunch of noni cowboys is poisoning the market and degrading Panama's reputation as a serious place to invest in reforestation. The idea of managed farms is good. Their implementation - as far as there is any - sucks, to put it mildly.

Okke Ornstein


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/28/2003 11:31:03 AM

By: Bob Estes

It was my understanding that all who invest get a choice of what they would like to plant. As we all know to properly get any returns from Teak, the period would be at least 18 years. Now if you don't believe me (which is fine and I don't give a crap), you can always ask a forest engineer, or whatever they are called.

Okkie, what is your fasinaction with Teak anyway? Good grief, you act like you were the one who founded it. I also noticed that they don't plant tulips...damn those folks.


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/27/2003 6:26:43 PM

By: Okke Ornstein

The noni-tubbies strike back....

But still no land titles and still no teak.

Okke Ornstein


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/26/2003 10:48:14 PM

By: John Lucas

THE ANATOMY OF A NONI SCAM: EPISODE II - THE DUMBO INDIAN STRIKES BACK
(Any resemblance with real persons or entities is, of course, entirely coincidental... yeah right!)

THE QUEST FOR KNOWDLEGE
After a lot of thinking, the Indian decides he really wants to be become a businessman. He travels to the city in a quest to get all the information available about offshore business. He learns all the basics and even learns how to use computers and Internet.

One lonely night, while searching for information about offshore on the Internet, he finds an offshore site. After browsing the entire site, he enters the message board section and finds a post about noni, a very common fruit back in his town. After reading the post, the Indian is in shock. Why would someone write something so bad about his people? Suddenly, his perfect world is falling apart and he realizes that people are not nice as he always thought. He decides to make a search on the Internet about the writer of the post, to find out more about his background. "Not so dumb after all" says the Indian to himself while making the search.

STAB YOUR FRIEND'S BACK AND HIDE THE KNIFE
The search is over. That was fast. The Indian finds out that the writer, a back stabber fraudster who escaped from Netherlands, operates a very suspicious company that goes by the name of Tulip Universal Project SA. In fact, the Panamanian Securities Commission issued a warning against an unlicensed mutual fund with links to The Harris Organization operated by Marc Harris, a fraudster who escaped to Nicaragua. "I saw this coming" says the Indian while shaking his head. As it turns out, the writer worked and was a very close friend of Marc Harris. Probably even planned and execute some of their scams. Next thing you see, the writer writing all kind of crap about his old buddy. "What a friend!" says the Indian. "Probably even took his girlfriend" keeps saying to himself.

With a very sad expression on his face, the Indian comes back to his town. He now knows the truth. The world isn't a happy place. He goes to see the head of the tribe. "Tell me" asks the Indian. "Why would a fraudster accuse someone else of being a fraudster?". The head of the tribe looks into his eyes and says, "That my friend, is the question we have been trying to answer for centuries".

WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN NEXT?
The writer, a back stabber fraudster who escaped from Netherlands, will have to start thinking about packing and escaping again. Where would it be this time? Nicaragua maybe. Not sure if he will have a good reception by his old buddy, though. As a wise man said once "Real friends stab you in the front, not in the back". The writer probably did both.



Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/26/2003 8:20:16 PM

By: Marvin Mendelwitz

See the following sites, which should be consulted to form a correct view of Mr. Orenstein:

1. http://www.conaval.gob.pa/principal.asp?id=den&sb=ale

2, http://www.offshorebusiness.com/KYC/Archives/2002/10_Oct/kycalert_2.htm 3rd article down

3. http://www.offshorebusiness.com/free_documents.asp

Here's what the authorities have done about him in Panama:

Panama Securities Commission acts against Tulip Fund
The Panamanian Securities Commission (La Comisión Nacional de Valores) has issued a warning against an unlicensed mutual fund with links to The Harris Organization. The Tulip Fund was registered as a legal entity in Panama on June 14, 2002 under the name of Tulip Universal Project S. A. and its registered agent is Maximiliano Hidalgo, who works for Marc Harris. The registered address of the firm is Balboa Plaza Building, Office 501, Balboa Avenue, Panama, Republic of Panama, from which Marc Harris was evicted in June for non-payment of $47,832 in rent.
The President of Tulip Universal Project SA is Okke Ornstein, a Dutch national who is the investment manager for the Tulip Fund. Directors of the firm are Ornstein, who is a supporter of Marc Harris; Yanitza McClean and Magali de McClean, who both work for Harris. The mailing address of the Tulip Fund is P. O. Box 6 1097 El Dorado, Panama City, which is registered to The Harris Organization, and its billing contact is Yanitza de Gonzalez, who is Marc Harris' long-time personal assistant. Faced with mounting debts and eviction from his commercial space, Marc Harris left Panama for Nicaragua earlier this year. His group now operates under the name of Mitchell Astor Gilbert Trust Company.

P.S. His company offers teak investments. Go figure!


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/28/2003 3:37:31 PM

By: Insider

Ok, so let's see...

He was friends with Marc Harris who (at least for some time) was called "the best thing ever happened to Panama". Even while MH was being killed by the press (and I'm not saying it wasn't earned, nor implying the opposite), he stayed loyal to his friend, defending him all the way. Then when finally the fall of MH came and it became clear that MH at least defrauded some of its clients and more important maybe, left most of his Panamanian workers with pay, social security, severance payments,..., Mr. Ornstein changed his idea about what he taught was his friend. Can people not chnage their mind about something, especially when they realise they are wrong??? I think that is ok, the opposite would be called stubborn, naive, being blind or worse...
As far as that part of the story goes, I cannot possibly agree with the previous poster...


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/28/2003 2:58:11 PM

By: Okke Ornstein

Well, I thought you were done...

If you scroll down on this board a little further, you will be able to see what I have to say about Harris. I don't want to discuss him, really, but anonymous people like you always feel some urge to bring him up, hiding behind hotmail or yahoo addresses. As if it has any relation with noni, reforestation or my company. It's just mud slinging, and you don't even have the balls to show your face.

You seem to know little to nothing about the market for tropical hardwood, so I'll leave it at that. I already said that you have my best wishes should you decide to get into noni. You don't have to announce that over and over again. I believe you. Go ahead. Have fun with it.

Okke Ornstein


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/28/2003 2:43:47 PM

By: Bob Estes

Well, I thought I was done.

The reference I made to Harris is not so much that you did business with him but that you defended the spineless F***.

Again, I don’t care if NONI works or not, but if I do invest, I want to make sure there is a market. You make a valid point on whether or not there will be, but I could legitimately say the same for reforestation (Trees). Now of course there will always be a need for paper and such, but hard wood to me doesn’t seem like it will attract the kind of money that it used to. I say this simply because of how things work. Styles come and go. Let us not forget the days of bell-bottom pants and funky furniture. I see the bell-bottom pants already back, and the next thing you know people will start living like they used to in the '70's. It will be a like a bad version of Clock Work Orange. Where will the hard wood prices be then? Here’s a fact; it takes a lot longer to grow a tree than to grow NONI, so anyone with common sense would know that it is a higher risk for a return on something that takes years longer to produce than something that can be sold in 18 months.

If there are frivolous law suits going on regarding NONI, I would have to say that it has really nothing to do with the fruit, but how it was marketed.

Hell with it, I am making my own NONI plantation, and I will call it the NOKIE. Anyone want to buy a lot?


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/28/2003 2:16:21 PM

By: Okke Ornstein

Trying to do the opposite of what I say - is that your investment strategy or just a word game?

And there really is no need to make any reference to Harris. I did not make that bed, as you call it, you did. If you discount everyone that has had something to do with Harris - and I never did any business with him - there is not a great deal of people offshore left to talk to, including the escaped artist and many others.

Sure, noni sells. But nobody knows how long it will last. It might very well be a hype that's over in a couple of years. For your information, I'll quote here from another publication about noni:

(...) For example, Noni contains a so-called „miracle" ingredient named proxeronine which is supposed to be a precursor to xeronine. Now, have you ever heard of anyone dying from a deficiency of either proxeronine or xeronine? No, you haven‚t? Have you ever seen either of these two elements on the RDA list? No? Well, have you ever seen any valid peer review (http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art4569.asp) research that proves anything whatsoever about these two ingredients? Of course not! And, more than likely, you never will.

There‚s absolutely NO real science, NO real research and NO real proof ˆ NOTHING ˆ behind the Noni salesman‚s hype that his bottles of sugary juice cures arthritis, ulcers, sprains, depression, high blood pressure, menstrual cramps and on and on and on. Well, you may ask, have these con artists ever been tarred and feathered? Yes, as a matter of fact, they have. Only it was a modern version of „tar and feathers."

The Morinda company, who first hyped Noni Juice, has been busy settling legal actions taken against them by the Attorney Generals of California, Arizona, New Jersey and Texas. The charges? Making unsubstantiated claims about Noni Juice. Sounds like snake oil salesmen to me. (...)

Now, Mr. Estes, I really wish you luck in your ventures.

Okke Ornstein


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/28/2003 1:53:56 PM

By: Bob Estes

Now I don't know what to do, because you are now saying to go ahead and buy the damn lots. What I'm trying to do here is do the opposite of whatever you say.

Further, I would like to say I'm sorry for making reference to Marc....you made that bed, and I can't believe that me adding to that would help in anyway. Having anything to do with Marc is enough to discount anyone.

On a personal note, I have never tried NONI juice or even seen the fruit in person, but it sells. Whoever buys it, who cares, as long as they buy it. Isn't that the point of the whole project. Granted, I shouldn't be saying too much about a project that I don't know enough to speak intelligently in regards to it, but what I wanted to point out, is that I don't think you do either.

I'm done. Thanks for your time and your opinions.


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/28/2003 1:37:29 PM

By: Okke Ornstein

You have clearly been drinking too much noni juice....

Marc Harris' ex? You must be joking.

What does Marc Harris have to do with noni farms in Panama? Or are you one of those ex-employees that pleaded guilty to securities fraud and then contact me anonymously to set Tulip up with money laundering and violating the Patriot Act - like Bill Amos tried to do?

And by all means, go ahead and buy a noni farm. Buy two! I couldn't care less where you put your money or what would be your preferred method of losing it. I would be the last person to stop you from producing your own noni juice, working or not. I'm sure the "prestigeous" Well Being Journal has lots of other investment ideas for you as well.

Good luck,

Okke Ornstein


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/29/2003 4:44:35 PM

By: Okke Ornstein

What has been published so far on the noni scam is really just the tip of the iceberg....

After the weekend, I'm sure you want to know more about this:

> Income Opportunity
> All Charter Members are paid a referral fee of $500 per member referred. In
> addition there is a tremendous residual opportunity from renewal fees, bonuses
> and purchases in the future.
>
> The Tools:
> Charter Members receive an international asset protection trust from an
> established jurisdiction ($2,000 Value), an identical website to the corporate
> website (with your company name under the green arc) and we provide you with a
> registered certificate of membership.
>
> Join us today!

So, in a few days:

Prince Noni and the Principality of Magna!

Okke Ornstein


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/29/2003 2:00:19 PM

By: Truth Teller

Tell me..... are you by any chance French? or do you perhaps have French heritage.

You certainly issue vague and unjustifiable threats to people who dare utter opposing views..... just like a Frenchie.

www.frenchbastards.com


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/29/2003 9:15:53 AM

By: Outsider

You have been warned.


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/28/2003 11:11:50 PM

By: Insider

Hey, who moved the board to Iraq ???

Last time I checked this board was free speech.

So if you don't like teak, or just don't see the difference in value between a straight tree or a twisted branching tree, that's fine. That's your opinion and your good right and you're entitled to speak your mind.

However, don't tell us to shut up. If you don't like it, don't follow the thread... that's what the back button is for...

Most of the people on this board are not crooks, au contraire. However, text like "I'm gonna get you all" does seem to make you part of the minority on this board...


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/28/2003 8:48:49 PM

By: Outsider

Stop talking about teak. It makes me sick. A teak tree is a teak tree and ya basta!

All I have to say is that no matter who you are or who you think you are or from where you all escaped. For me, you are just a bunch of crooks and I'm gonna get you all. You've been warned.


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/28/2003 4:07:45 PM

By: Okke Ornstein

I couldn't agree more about the teak.

Actually, the thinnings (cutting young trees to make space) can already make some money, though not substantial (after about 8 years). 25 Years would be the earliest recommendable to cut grown trees.

Good soil conditions are important when planting hardwood trees. Especially teak uses a lot of nutrients, and plantations with only teak tend to have the soil exhausted when they are cut after 25 years. Another drawback of teak plantations is that 10 times as much pesticides need to be used compared to mixed plantations. That's not only bad for the environment, it also increases cost.

Contrary to what many investors are led to believe, trees need maintainance. As I said, there are many plantations here that are not taken care of, and as a result the trees aren't worth anything.

Mr. "Estes" on the other hand, would probably be interested in making even more money by becoming the sales director of the noni tubbies. It appears they have a vacancy. The last one was arrested and extradited to Costa Rica where he was wanted on fraud charges and child molesting (as well as in Canada, by the way). Two ripped off investors found him here through a very much underaged girl that knew him through the pedophile sex parties this sales director visited and that are organized here by the notorious Madam Tonya. I met the ripped off investors and the underaged girl. She even pointed out the appartment in El Cangrejo where these parties were held. The noni tubbies will no doubt claim that they knew nothing about all this, which I find hard to believe. Anyway, I'm sure Mr. "Estes" will be able to distill his job description from the above.

More to follow,

Okke Ornstein


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/28/2003 3:43:13 PM

By: insider

As far I know, Teak needs at least 20 years to be really worth something, much better is 25 or even 30 years; the longer the better. The problem with most plantations is that the soil is so bad that the teak trees never grow more than 20 years because they have exhausted the soil. Also, I do not really think the soil, nor the climate in BdT is very good for growing teak. And from ecological standpoint: please keep teak out of there, and out of San Blas too please... Teak is an invader, who will relentless take over space from natural local vegetation and mess up ecosystems, especially fragile and complicated ones like in BdT and San Blas...


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/31/2003 9:38:37 AM

By: Bob Estes

Okkie:

two words FUCK YOU!

Now I am a child molestor? Why don't you play in traffic. I was done until your mouth got in the way again. Just suprised its not wrapped around MH's dick for once. Yeah I'll bring it up and for the other person who posted "Are people not entitled to change their minds?" Of course they are, and I am happy to see that Okkie has opened his eyes (to at least that)....now do you think he will end up changing his mind about Noni?


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/31/2003 12:57:42 AM

By: Outsider

Episode III is so f***ed up. Need to improve your english dumbo.

Just remember all of you noni, teak and tulip perverts: I'M GONNA HUNT YOU DOWN. I'LL BE YOUR SHADOW. THERE'S NOWHERE TO ESCAPE THIS TIME.


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/30/2003 11:49:30 PM

By: The Dumbo Indian


o.k. o.k. I had been a while in this forum and want to tell you the history never told before about the nonitubies (term taken from Mr. Okke Ornstein) we have written this history in three episodes ... stay tune

I. The complete guide to nonitubiland
II. Not everything that glows is noni
III. Is possible to drink Lava??? what is in your f***ng mind?


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/30/2003 10:11:29 PM

By: Okke Ornstein

Ouch! That hurt!

Prince Noni is getting angry!

Well, here's another sneak preview of the scam the noni-tubbies ran before getting into noni, the "Magna Societal". Same phone numbers, interchanged email-addresses, domains all registered to the same Prince Noni....:

> High-Level Dynamics
> We are building a society through membership and from the membership dues we
> are buying an island in the Caribbean. This island will be a
> sovereign principality with a substantial hosting facility as its epicenter
> and core business. Charter Members are able to participate in a
> tremendous income opportunity and will have the option in the future to
> purchase virtual residences with time-share options or own actual
> physical homes complete with residency status.

The Sovereign Principality of Magna, headed by Prince Noni, whom, according to the Artist Who Escaped from America, looks like a "Californian surfer". The promotional email goes on:

> The Business of Magna Societal
> The national economy will be established on a multitude of fiber optic
> backbones which will be opened to the world for offshore banking,
> corporate services, interactive TV content storage and distribution, gaming
> and global hosting for best of breed ASP Solutions. Magna's land
> plan has over 40,000 virtual residences, 4,000 single-family homes, 35
> multi-use towers.

The current status is that there is NO island, NO "multitude of fibre optic backbones", NO "virtual residences", NO single-family homes and NO multi-use towers. There IS however a lot of money gone.

Surfin' on:

> For the confidential website information please call toll free
>
> 1-866-811-5324 or 011-507-214-8705

Yeah, please call the 1-866 number and find out that it's the same number the noni-tubbies use today to hype the best investment the Artist Who Escaped from America has ever seen (for himself, that is. He gets well into the five figures a month for having seen this tremendous income opportunity)

The full story about the noni tubbies, complete with testimony from defrauded investors and underaged girls is to follow in a couple of days.

Yo Prince Noni! Can I go surfing now?

Okke Ornstein




Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/30/2003 8:33:47 PM

By: Marvin Mendelwitz

The Fleeing Dutchman
(As usual, all references to persons living or dead – or, if you believe in that stuff, persons undead – is purely coincidental)

There once was a young man in the Netherlands who pissed everyone off. He wouldn’t man the sluices and wouldn’t put his finger in any of Holland’s beautiful dikes. He also had the terrible habit of throwing his wooden shoes into machinery. For those reasons – and perhaps for others (more is to be learned on that) – he needed to escape from Holland.
Eventually, he washed up on the shores of Panama off Punta Patilla at the mouth of the Cloaca Maxima and was covered from head to foot with its effluvia. “I can sell this stuff,” said he.

He decided to establish an investment business and filled his website and advertising material with that stuff. In memory of his native country, he named his business for its national flower and claimed proudly that he wanted to be a “Fund of Funds.” It never occurred to him that the tulip was the symbol and basis of the great Dutch financial disaster in the late 1600’s and that the name Fund of Funds had already been used in the 1960’s by Bernie Cornfeld for an enterprise that met a like and very disreputable fate. Not very bright, but the phrase “Dumb as a Dutchman” (“DD”) didn’t come from nowhere.

He needed staff for his new company. Fortunately, at that very moment, an escapee from the United States who operated a large investment business in Panama pissed off the local authorities and had to escape to another Central American country. He left a sizable workforce behind, although rumor has it that he left nothing else behind, including his customers’ money. From this orphaned group of employees, the Fleeing Dutchman selected persons who were pretty high up in the old organization, who swore that they were honest folks and were “shocked, shocked” to hear that their former boss had done anything improper. Apparently, our hero never heard of another DD – due diligence.
Since he was an honest man with a group of honest employees, he decided to get into ethical investing. What those investments might be or the basis for selecting them were never made clear, even to people who asked. “It’s a secret,” said he; “Besides, I’m ethical.” It’s proprietary,” chanted his chorus of employees, “so we’d be schmucks to tell you. Besides, we’re ethical, too.”

He decided to “give back” to his new country by exposing its shortcomings. He exposed the government, he exposed politicians and he exposed other businesses, the last with a special emphasis on his competitors, none of whom were as honest – or as sanctimonious – as he. “My teak is ethically grown on land that wasn’t bought from the Indians with trinkets, said he, conveniently forgetting that no land in Panama was bought for trinkets. (A fine example of geographical and historical befuddlement; only a DD could mistake Panama City for Manhattan Island and Vasco Nuñez de Balboa for Peter Stuyvesant.) It seemed obvious to all concerned that a person who decried dishonesty as much as he must himself be very honest.

The government, the politicians and the competitors proved to be a bunch of ingrates. Not ordinary ingrates, but pissed-off ingrates. The competitors couldn’t do much except give digital indications their unhappiness, which in this case had nothing to do with sending angry e-mail. The government and the politicians could and did respond, not digitally, but on paper, letting the world know where the Fleeing Dutchman could be found, warning that his ethical business was not licensed and noting for inexplicable reasons that the ethical business was staffed by the honest and shocked employees of the escapee United States who operated a large investment business in Panama. It remains to be seen whether the Fleeing Dutchman will remain here or choose to escape.


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/29/2003 4:56:22 PM

By: Outsider

These people have been threaten because they have ripped off other people not because of their opinions about some teak, but I'm sure you already knew that.

By the way, promoting those kind of web sites just shows everyone the kind of person you are. Just pathetic.


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/31/2003 9:57:49 PM

By: Outsider

I knew this would happen from the beginning. Innocent people would get exposed to all of you perverts.

It's very easy to summarize what's going on here. The perverts from one side are the ones making money and the perverts from the other side are not. Oh Oh... someone isn't happy! Everyone wants a piece but not everyone gets one. So, the perverts who are not making any money very quietly start bitchin and whining while the perverts making money, don't want to lose any, so they bitch back.

Now, here comes the funny part. Both sides, especially the ones not making any money, will tell you that they care about the soil, the indians, the investors, they even care about your mom... wait a minute, where have I heard this before? Oh yeah! damn commercials! The truth is that they don't give a f*** about anything, perverts.

To avoid these situations from happening again, I'm working on a special report, so people will be able to distinguish fraudsters from honest people. The name is "Diary of a Fraudster". To give you a little preview, we'll go deep inside a fraudster's mind to know the way he thinks and operates. Hopefully this will help you recognize and avoid fraudsters.

It will be available soon...



Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/31/2003 5:02:09 PM

By: Okke Ornstein

You shouldn't pay too much attention to the Mr. Estes's of this world who, well, have something personal against people they have never met or even contacted and are unable to control their eccentric emotions.

I'm not against noni. As somebody else here said, if you're clear and transparent to investors about what you do with their money and what are realistic prognoses there's probably nothing wrong with planting noni.

But hyping it as a solid 20%-30% investment on a Houdini site is not very serious, in my opinion. Telling people that it will sell the next years but that nothing can be said on the longer term would sound more honest to me.

The outfit I am attacking is run by people who have a history in scams and swindles. "Magna Societal", their previous combination of an MLM/Real Estate deal, was nothing more than a scheme to defraud investors.

I have received copies of email correspondence between the noni-tubbies and investors in which they claim the land is cleared and has been planted, and that pictures and titles have been made and are on their way.

These are simply lies.

The land is not titled, nor has it been planted. But even so, the pictures of the "planted land" are described by one noni-tubbie as "just beautiful, like a garden paradise".

As in reforestation, there are scammers and there are the serious companies. These particular noni planters are scammers. It's them who endanger Panama as a serious place to reforest or farm. As someone here said, it is very well possible to do business honestly in these sectors.

The concept of managed farms is a good one, and it does make me angry to see a bunch of cowboys raping a good idea to defraud investors in order to line their own pockets.

Okke Ornstein
(real name, and real email address in case anyone would want to contact me).








Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/31/2003 4:27:33 PM

By: Simon Finlay

I am really puzzled by this Noni message board. It sounds like a personal vendetta between two people more than factual. A friend of mine referred me to this site which was referred to him by someone who works with a company that I have been speaking with regarding a substantial investment in reforestation in Panama. If Noni is such a scam, why are the plantations I have toured in two ares of Panama real, the principals at Morinda (tahitian Noni) I have spoken with gave me full and sunstantial financial disclosure and Le Prenza claims that over time Noni will becom a primary export of Panama. The Panamanian based company sounds like the one you reference through vailed language. They have show our firm that they are, in fact, certified for reforestation. We are currently investing several million dollars into Panamanian based polycultural reforestation. Noni is one of the crops we are planting. It seems all you are doing is damaging Panamanian Noni instead of fullflling, again, what appears to be a personal vendetta.

SSF


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/31/2003 1:10:10 PM

By: Bob Estes

By the way I am not a bad person, but if it wasn't meant in bad way I would be highly surprised. If I was wrong in my interpretation, well then....NO, I still don't give a shit.


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/31/2003 1:03:55 PM

By: Bob Estes

"I'm sure Mr. "Estes" will be able to distill his job description from the above." is a quote from Okkie's post....the “above” that he is referring to is all that is stated about this sales director and his child molesting. Maybe if you read it again. "Hooked on phonix worked for me!"

Now all the nonsense to an alias....you guys are a bunch of freaks! Just because this is my first time I post on this site, all of the sudden I am not who I say I am? Granted I created the yahoo account, so no assholes would have my work address, but shit, get over yourselves with this alias crap.


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 3/31/2003 11:27:39 AM

By: Insider

I jusvt reread the thread two times looking where Mr. Ornstein would call Mr. Estes a child-molestor. I didn't find it. I did find an alusion about the ex-sales director for the noni farms being a child molestor (and being in jail on that account). Could it be that Mr. Estes mis-read this and now thinks that he is being called a child molestor?

....

Hey wait a minute... that would make Mr. Estes the current sales director of the noni-farms...

But why would the sales director only "consider" investing in his own product?

These aliases are so fun to play around with...

Will Mt. Ornsteins view of Noni change? I really don't know... I guess his views about the tubbies won't. Personally, I really don't think the idea of planting Noni is such a bad one, on the condition it is done right and sold right. It all boils down to security and transparency for the investors. Plant it in such a way (on titled land for example) that the investors right are clear and protected. Sell it in such a transparent way that an investor knows what he's getting into. If it is a fashion product, tell the investor it can stop selling in the near future and don't hype it paying 20-30% a year like on the Houdini website...


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 4/3/2003 12:13:15 AM

By: The Dumbo Indian


no, no,no english getting better ...indian not stupid

see... check the artist and the surfer new scam...

http://www.escapeartist.com/San_Cristobal/San_Cristobal.html


thanks for all your comments ... more to come


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 4/2/2003 7:45:20 AM

By: Outsider

There you go bitchin and whining all over again.

Will someone give this pervert indian his piece of the caribbean??? So he can shut the f*** up. I'm just tired of all of you perverts bitchin all the time. Time is ticking out for all of you.

P.S. Your english still sucks, dumbo.


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 4/1/2003 11:07:44 PM

By: The Dumbo Indian

Sorry I didn´t reply to the outsider comments, well try to hunt all of them f****er

Do you want to improve my english??? well guess what i dont care a f**** remenber I´m an Indian

As I promise this is the first chapter in the nonitubies trilogy

...A Long time ago in a far noni camp

Everything begins with the Surfer, he said "I have this scam in mind and want to make money from it... by the time he, and the "child molestor" began a journey, "no problemo surfer" with my background in frauds we can make a bunch of money, all we need is a told free number, a website, a camera, and that´s it like you do in the north planet , we can start this scam.

Also another menber of the scam better knows as the "doctor" appears and said: "yes also with my books of lies and frauds I would take care of all the numbers".

and the journey begins... first they make a shelter in one of the hills of a well know town and start to develop group to make business fast, but guess what ? ....

more to come stay tune...


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 4/1/2003 9:04:18 AM

By: Bob Estes

I couldn't agree more. And until I get something substantial, I will continue to think that it is a good product. Hell I have seen bottles of the stuff selling for as much as 40 bucks. Now I don't know anything about planting or that sort of stuff, but if there is a market that is willing to pay that much for something, then why the hell not? Further, you're dead on when it comes to Panama wanting Noni to be its main export in that area, so now you have the govenment backing it as well. That never hurts.


Anonymous
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011

Posted: 4/1/2003 8:59:00 AM

By: Bob Estes

But Okkie you said in several post that Noni was not the way to go....that's when you compared it to Teak. I understand that you don't care too much for the Noni Tubbies, and I can appreciate that (especially if their sales rep. was wanted for child porn or whatever). Needless to say they will have a lot of work ahead of them to get back on track, but you did destroy the thought of being a success with noni, by using frivolous law suits, and predicting it would be a thing of the past in a very short time.

Bob Estes
(still trying to control, my eccentric emotion)


 

Jump to different Forum... 

We hunt for red flags in high-value, cross-border finance by monitoring offshore and onshore courts, regulatory actions, offering documents, and other sources - and email you the results.

View Recent Digests

Cayman Court Secrecy: A Huge Red Flag for Foreign Investors & Clients
David Marchant
As any fule kno, the biggest enemy of fraud, corruption, money laundering, and other forms of financial crime is transparency, while their best friend is secrecy. That's why the unprecedented mass sealing of cases that's taking place at the Financial Services Division of the Grand Court of the Cayman Islands is repugnant to anyone with a genuine concern for financial crime.